Concerning a message posted at: sg.messages.yahoo.com/
Re: Edward T. Babinski
Top /Culture, Religion, & Philosophy /Evolution
Culture, new ageism, religion, philosophy. What do you believe in?
- Evolution 27/09/04
- New Book: From Darwin to Hitler 27/09/04
- Edward T. Babinski 27/09/04
- Re: Edward T. Babinski 27/09/04
Subject: Edward T. Babinski
by: ichiban_sux
Posted on: 27/09/04 21:08
Msg #3
A Reponse to "Darwinism and the Nazi Race Holocaust."
by Edward T. BabinskiRe: Edward T. Babinski
by: islewake
Posted on: 27/09/04 22:39
Msg #4BERGMAN: The Nazis relied heavily upon the work of Hans F.K. Günther, professor of 'racial science' at the University of Jena
ED: Note the admission, "relied heavily upon the work of Hans F. K. Günther," whose "work" consisted of "proving" the "inferiority of the Jews." Why "the Jews" you ask? Because Günther and many other Germans "knew" that the "Jews" were inferior long before Günther ever did his first "racial science" experiment (sic). In fact, many Germans believed that "Jews" were inferior for CENTURIES, because the Bible and Martin Luther told them so. So really, what DOES the Holocaust come down to? Günther's "racial science," a Jew-hating pseudoscience, based firmly on centuries of Jew-baiting and Jew-hating under the Christian cross
# Where in the bible does it say that Jews were inferior. Could you either answer that, or ask Ed to answer this.
BERGMAN: Poliakov notes that many intellectuals in the early 1900s accepted telegony, the idea that 'bad blood' would contaminate a race line forever, or that 'bad blood drives out good' , just as bad money displaces good money. Only extermination would permanently eliminate inferior genetic lines, and thereby further evolution. . Darwin even compiled a long list of cases where he concluded bad blood polluted a whole gene line, causing it to bear impure progeny forever.
ED: This idea of "telegony" does not necessarily warrant "extermination" in the sense of killing people, just sterilization. I also wonder whether Darwin ever mentioned the words "bad blood" and spoke about it "polluting" a whole gene line. He probably did collect examples in which a pedigreed dog or pigeon was bred with a wild type and the children of that offspring no longer bore pedigreed offspring. But so what? Does that mean build ovens and kill Jews, homosexuals, Poles, and Gypsies? Darwin did invent a theory of inheritance that involved gemmules carried in the blood that carried physically inherited information, but it was disproven long ago. Nobody believes Darwin's theory of inheritance any more.
# so this Ed guy is trying to say sterilization of "inferior races" is OK? Would he like to be in queue for the first to be sterilized, or you?
Isn't he being incredibly racist? You would want to support him and his views?
REPLY TO ISLEWAKE FROM ED BABINSKI
ISLEWAKE: Where in the bible does it say that Jews were inferior. Could you either answer that, or ask Ed to answer this.
ED: Christian society/civilization viewed Jews as spiritually and morally "inferior" damnably so, since Christians grew convinced that only a stubbornly evil people blinded by Satan could deny the truth of Christianity for centuries and not convert, even while living in the midst of Christians. (See also the last chapter of Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not BELIEVE will be CONDEMNED," and John 3, "Whoever does NOT BELIEVE stands CONDEMNED ALREADY.") What a blight also on Christian society to have such unbelievers in their midst. They feared that allowing such Satanic blindness to continue unresisted in the midst of their Christian cities might even bring down God's wrath on the inhabitants of the entire town.
CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM
[The Theodosian Code appeared in 438 A.D. It was a collection of the edicts of earlier Christian Roman Emperors brought together in a single book.] The Code characterized Judaism as "abominable superstition" and Jewish religious gatherings are referred to as "sacrilegious assemblies." The presence of Christians in a synagogue was regarded as lese-majeste liable to persecution. From 423 on, no new synagogue could be erected without the permission of the Church. Similar restrictions applied to Jews throughout the Middle Ages. A Christian who converted to the Jewish faith lost his property and his right of behest. In the fifth century, capital punishment was imposed upon Jews who solicited new adherents for their faith. In the seventh century, the Jews in Spain, Italy, and France were ordered to chose between baptism and expulsion. Saint Isidore of Seville (ca. 560-636) summoned a persecution of Jews, and thereupon King Sisebut ordered their forcible conversion. Although the Church did not endorse this procedure officially, it did subject the Jews to all penalties for heresy if they could be accused of inclination to their former faith, from which they had been averted by force. The reason given was that baptism once performed is indelible, even if it is performed by coercion. In 694, the Council of Toledo decreed perpetual servitude for Jews. The Fourth Lateran Council of 1215, which had particular significance for the treatment of heretics. determined that Jews should wear a distinctive dress or particular badge, putting these regulations into Canon Law.
The Protestant Reformer, Martin Luther, was similarly intolerant toward the Jews and their public worship. His advice is "that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, and that those portions which will not burn be covered up with earth. And this should be done to the honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God may see that we are Christians and have not knowingly tolerated not willed such public lies, maledictions, and blasphemies against His Son and His Christians." [Luther's Works (German), Erlangen Edition, 37,233]- Mensching, Tolerance and Truth in Religion, trans., Hans-J. Klimkeit
(Alabama: The University of Alabama Press, 1971)
In 1543 Martin Luther wrote two violent books against the Jews. His intercourse with several Rabbis filled him with disgust and indignation against their pride, obstinacy, and blasphemies. He came to the conclusion that it was useless to dispute with them and impossible to convert them. [Luther saw things this way.] Moses could do nothing with Pharaoh by warnings, plagues and miracles, but had to let him drown in the Red Sea. The Jews would crucify their expected Messiah, if he ever should come, even worse than they crucified the Christian Messiah. They are a blind, hard, incorrigible race. He went so far as to advise their expulsion from Christian lands [and forbidding them "safe passage" as well -- E.T.B.], the prohibition of their books, and the burning of their synagogues and even their houses in which they blaspheme our Savior and the Holy Virgin. In the last of his sermons preached shortly before his death at Eisleben, where many Jews were allowed to trade, he concluded with a severe warning against the Jews as dangerous public enemies who ought not to be tolerated, but left the alternative of conversion or expulsion.
- Philip Schaff [Professor of Church History in the Union Theological Seminary, New York] Modern Christianity: The German Reformation = Vol. VII of History of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmanns, second edition revised, 1910)
THE NAZIS AND THE JEWS
ED'S RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION ABOVE
It took Nazi "pseudo-science" to redefine that hatred and scorn in terms of the latest fade, biological "inferiority," but such a redefinition did not redirect the focus of the scorn, since it had been directed for centuries at "the Jews."
Neither did the Nazis reject the earlier Christian anti-semitic arguments, they used every variety of argument at their disposal. For instance, Hitler prominently dispalyed Luther's book, ON THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES, in a glass case at his rallies. There were also religious propganda pamphlets from the Nazis showing that they also employed the racial inferiority arguments that CREATIONISTS were using during that same time period as well.
Note that the Christian religion and racism also have a past together, not just Nazism and racism. South Africa, ruled by a conservative Protestant white minority, featured a school system that taught creationism right beside apartheid teachings of the racial inferiority of Blacks, and apartheid in South Africa lasted a long time. The most religious part of the United States, the South, with the fewest most harmonious religious denominations, Southern Baptists, Southern Methodists and Southern Presbyterians, split with their northern brethren over the right of ministers to own slaves, defended the right to own slaves, and ever after the Civil War, continued to advocate the inferiority of the Black race. Even today, you can visit the website of the KKK in America and read, "We [the Ku Klux Klan] are born-again Christians and intend to remain so."
-- Pastor Thomas Robb, ordained Baptist minister and National Director of the Ku Klux Klan, [Source: http://www.kukluxklan.org "Christian Witness Doctrine: Politics from a White Christian perspective -- the way our country was meant to be! 'What we need is more Patriotism in the Christians and more Christianity in the Patriots.'"])
In short, it was evolution, creation, and yes, religion too, that maintained the anti-Jewish prejudice in Germany. Neither did Hitler or the Nazis abandon "God," which would obviously have been more of a Bolshevik error! How the Nazis hated those atheistic Bolshevists!
Was Catholic Hitler "Anti-Christian?" See, On the Trail of Bogus Quotes by Richard C. Carrier [The essay excerpts research published later as "Hitler's Table Talk: Troubling Finds." German Studies Review 26.3 (Oct 2003): 561-76)] "We often hear accusations that 'Adolf Hitler was an atheist and look what he did!' The idea that Hitler believed in God, that he even claimed Christ as his own, is so shocking to people that they will go to any lengths to deny it. But the notion that Hitler was an atheist has already been soundly refuted.1 For more, here.
MORE ON JEWS AND CHRISTIANS
Historian Dagobert Runes (whose mother was killed by the Nazis) blamed the Christian church for the Holocaust. He wrote: "Everything Hitler did to the Jews, all horrible, unspeakable misdeeds, had already been done to the smitten people before by the Christian churches. The isolation of Jews into ghetto camps, the wearing of the yellow spot, the burning of Jewish books, and finally the burning of the people -- Hitler learned it all from the church. However, the church burned Jewish women and children alive, while Hitler granted them a quicker death, choking them first with gas."
Dr. Runes said Christian priests and ministers still were inculcating hostility to Jews as the Third Reich arrived. "The clergymen don't tell you whom to kill; they just tell you whom to hate," he wrote. "The Christian clergymen start teaching their young at the tenderest age that THE Jews killed the beloved, gentle Son of God; that God Himself, the Father, punished THE Jews by dispersion and the burning of their holy city; that God holds THE Jews accursed forever. For all the 2,000 years, there was no act of war against the Jews in which the church didn't play an intrinsic part. And wherever there was a trace of mercy, charity, or tolerance to be found amid this savagery, it came not from the church but from humanitarians in the civil world, as in Napoleonic France during the American Revolution. Some fancy that these brutal outrages. occurred only in the Dark Ages, as if this were an excuse. Nay, when George Washington was president, Jewish people were burning on the spit in Mexico. Wherever there are Christian churches there is anti-Semitism."
When Nazism finally came, it was rooted in a fundamental fact: Religion had split Europe into a dominant majority and a vilified minority. Madmen rode this division to destruction. Fifteen years after the ghastly contents of the death camps were revealed, reformer Pope John XXIII offered this prayer: "The mark of Cain is stamped upon our foreheads. Across the centuries, our brother Abel has lain in blood that we drew, and shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love. Forgive us, Lord, for the curse we falsely attributed to their names as Jews." [p. 163-165]
- James A. Haught, Holy Horrors: An Illustrated History of Religious Murder and Madness (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1990)
MARTIN LUTHER, HITLER'S SPIRITUAL ANCESTOR
ANTI-JUDAISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
FROM THE JEWS FOR JUDAISM WEBSITE
The question of why the Jews were chosen to be exterminated is obviously more complicated than what creationists would like people to believe. (So is the question of the founding of America, but that's another question entirely.)
ISLEWAKE: so this Ed guy is trying to say sterilization of "inferior races" is OK?
ED: Read what I wrote, I questioned where all the "hatred" focused on "the Jews," along with the Nazi idea to "exterminate" them, came from, and I pointed out it did NOT come from "science." At most, the Nazi pseudo-scientific teachings concerning "Jewish biological inferiority" and their pseudo-scientific fear of "mixed bad blood" might promote sterilization, not extermination. Extermination was the Nazi's choice, probably for psychological reasons. Deep down they knew that you could unite a nation of people together more easily if they had an object they could all fear, hate or project their own insecurities, fears, hatreds, and BLAME onto. As the war got brutal so did the need to shift the blame and get more brutal with the folks upon whom they had placed the most "blame" for what was "wrong" (or going "wrong") with the world.
ISLEWAKE: Would he like to be in queue for the first to be sterilized, or you?
ED: Again, read what I said, I was pointing out the pseudo-science that the Nazis were building their case round. And how the Nazis' rise to power benefited from the previous 1700 years of anti-Judaic hatred, fear, blame, etc. The trouble with Hitler and Nazism was quite simple, as even the Evangelical Christian, Chuck Colsen has pointed out. At first Hitler was PRAISED for removing criminals off the street and improving Germany's economy. Even the BAPTIST COURIER here in Greenville, S.C., praised Hitler for doing that. Many Christians thought Hitler had the right idea at that time. But after Hitler gained such huge devotion and found out how he could move and more people with his speeches, and rose to such a high place, he soon decided to start locking up whomever HE considered to be "criminals" as well.
ISLEWAKE: Isn't he being incredibly racist? You would want to support him and his views?
ED: "Incredibly racist?" I was not making racist remarks but comparing levels of Nazi pseudo-science. Of course if you wish to argue that one remark misunderstood by you is enough evidence to turn people away from whatever else I write, then maybe I should employ your logic and find a couple remarks in the Bible that appear detestable to me, and argue that people ought to no longer support the Bible. Because, depending on the circumstances, even genocide can be "right with the God of the Bible." For instance:
Every living thing on the earth was drowned [which no doubt included pregnant women and babies]... Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
-- Genesis 7:23
And according to the Bible, God gave orders to kill children and to rip open the bodies of pregnant women:
Thus saith the LORD... Slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.
-- 1 Samuel 15:3
The LORD delivered them before us; and we destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones.
-- Deuteronomy 2:33-34
Joshua destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD commanded.
-- Joshua 10:40
Kill every male among the little ones.
-- Numbers 31:17
The wind of the LORD shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and... Samaria shall become desolate... they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.
-- Hosea 13:15-16
With thee will I [the LORD] break in pieces the young man and the maid.
-- Jeremiah 51:22
Happy [or Blessed] shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
-- Psalm 137:9 ( A SONG!)
"The pestilences were sent by God. The frightful famine, during which the dying child with pallid lips sucked the withered bosom of his dead mother, was sent by God. God drowned an entire world with the exception of eight persons. Imagine how such acts would have stained the reputation of the devil!" -- Robert G. Ingersoll
You shall fear (no other gods) only Yahweh... for He is a jealous God. Otherwise His anger will be kindled against you and He will wipe you off the face of the earth... In the cities He gives you leave alive nothing that breathes... utterly destroy them... show them no mercy... or Yahweh will destroy you utterly... The Lord delivered them before us... we... utterly destroyed the men... women, and the little ones of every city... If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or your friend who is your own soul, entice you away secretly, saying, "Let us go serve other gods"... you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death... These curses shall come on you... because you would not obey the Lord... you shall eat the offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters... I [the Lord] will make mine arrows drunk with blood.
-- Deuteronomy. 2:33-34; 5:9; 6:13,15; 7:2,4; 13:6-9; 20:16,17; 28:45,47,53; 32:42
I shall make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh in the siege... A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed. You are My war-club... with you I shatter old man and youth. young man and virgin.
-- Jeremiah 19:9; 48:10; 51:20,22
Such verses bring to mind a question: Is "heaven" going to be a vacation paradise for obedient child slaughterers? ("A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed") I can just hear the pool-side chat in heaven, "We killed everyone in the city as God commanded. or thought we had. Then I spotted a heap of blankets rustling in an alleyway and yanked them aside, and there was a trembling young girl and her pregnant Mom. You should have seen the look on their faces as I raised my sword and. Hey waiter, can I get another Bloody Mary? Boy, I just love this place!"
Cheers,
Edward T. Babinski
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